Deepstacked Sticky Situation

[Pates]

I'd love to see what people's advice is on this hand.

I chose to go for small ball poker but then he makes a rediculous bet on the turn. What would you do? And what would you do if the turn didn't come a diamond? I think this is purely a bankroll situation and comes down to the arguement of leaving tables when you have doubled your buyin.

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/flash/replayer.swf?pokerhandid=378401

[Gerrard48LFC]

i call. is he really going to make that move with a made flush? AdQd? doubt it
he may have set of 7s or 9s but he made like 1/2 pot bet on the flop so i dont think that. he could easily do this with QQJJTT with a diamond in his hand. i would call tbh but it is a huge pot

[GarrethUoL]

Wow, this is a very tricky decision here.
The guy is so deepstacked, I really don't understand his shove, the play doesn't really make any sense. Unless he has :Ad :Ax, in which case you have two outs!
I think you were right to just flat preflop, but I like a bet here on the flop, to see where you're at. I think he has one of three hands:
:Ad, :Ax or :Qd, :Qx or :Ad, :Qd (although I don't understand his shove with this)

I don't think he can have anything else, because of the preflop action. Would he really 4-bet with a pocket pair that could've setted on that board? I don't think so.

I'm going to say he has :Ad, :Ax and make the fold here.

Be interesting to hear what you did!

[Poker_Gawd]

He could have A, K with A diamonds - I would snap call this

[The Incompetent-Donkey]

This is what you were playing for, either c/r the flop or snap call the turn.

Also 3bet more OOP with those stacks you want it about $8.

[Pates]

This is what you were playing for, either c/r the flop or snap call the turn.

Also 3bet more OOP with those stacks you want it about $8.
Pot bet is 6.75. I'm not going to **** myself just becaues he's deep and completely overbet the pot.

I'm never opting for a check raise on the flop. Pot control mate. At the end of the day I have a pair. I very rarely check raise a pair against another player let alone a deep stack with a hand I'd have trouble getting away from, that's a definite nono.

I still don't get your decision to 3-bet to $8 just because we're deep. It just means the pot will be bigger so bigger c-bets and bigger decisions. The size of a pot is massively dependant on what happens preflop. I don't want to get into a massive pot against another deepstack unless I'm holding nuts or near to it.

[GarrethUoL]

What actually happened here?

[Mac5672]

I'd call and take the risk..
How did it go?

[thefairy]

i would call. i think he has one of three hands aces queens or jacks. im pretty sure its not queens. i think it looks like jacks, for simple reason that, he probably has a diamond and is being so agressive, to get you off a draw, i dont think many people would go quite so crazy with aces.

jacks or kings. maybe 10's if you 3 bet more than say 4%

[bridgey321]

I call here. He could just be trying to defend TT-QQ or he could easily have AK with 1 diamond

[GarrethUoL]

Lol just me who said I'd fold here!
Good to see I'm the biggest nit here :P!

[tan_man25]

He is playing the button superbly I have to say. I agree that he has probably got an overpair to the board, but you're only 6 handed and you have kings, the chances that you're ahead are sooo high. I'd definitely call.

[thefairy]

He is playing the button superbly I have to say. I agree that he has probably got an overpair to the board, but you're only 6 handed and you have kings, the chances that you're ahead are sooo high. I'd definitely call.

if you think hes playing the button supurbly with an overpair, i dont get your line. I think unless hes got the nuts hes playing this gash.

[The Incompetent-Donkey]

Pot bet is 6.75. I'm not going to **** myself just becaues he's deep and completely overbet the pot.

I still don't get your decision to 3-bet to $8 just because we're deep. It just means the pot will be bigger so bigger c-bets and bigger decisions. The size of a pot is massively dependant on what happens preflop. I don't want to get into a massive pot against another deepstack unless I'm holding nuts or near to it.

It might be a pot sized bet, however you are OOP and I generally use the 3x IP and 4x OOP rule. I always would 3bet to $8 OOP unless there are some callers, if then it goes up.

I'm never opting for a check raise on the flop. Pot control mate. At the end of the day I have a pair. I very rarely check raise a pair against another player let alone a deep stack with a hand I'd have trouble getting away from, that's a definite nono.

its a 4 bet pot, the idea that you could somehow pot control this has gone out the window, you have like 1.5 PSB left. In essence the reason why you flatted was to keep his AK (possibly AQ),JJ-QQ in. Now your in the position you're in you should pull the trigger, or in this case have it pulled for you.

Plus were you really hoping for a set to stack off with in a 4bet pot:fubar:.


I still don't get your decision to 3-bet to $8 just because we're deep. It just means the pot will be bigger so bigger c-bets and bigger decisions. The size of a pot is massively dependant on what happens preflop. I don't want to get into a massive pot against another deepstack unless I'm holding nuts or near to it.

It's not BECAUSE we are deep, the fact you are just exacerbates the situation. When OOP you want the chips primarily to go in pre-flop, so stacking off with an overpair becomes correct. The strength of your hand is pre not post, so flog your horses whilst they're still alive.

[The Incompetent-Donkey]

I really don't understand his shove, the play doesn't really make any sense.

What else is he going to do? He has 2 choices push/check anything else would just be ridiculous. His shove is effectively for the size of the pot so it is not an overbet.

[Gary1111]

I'm folding pre-flop. I know it sucks but face it kk is a very vulnerable hand if your up against any ace rag, and you will see an ace on the flop 1/3 of the time. Not to mention the fact that your probably a 4 1/2 to 1 dog anyway because hes resprsenting AA. On top of all that your out of position. As for what you should do on the turn I have no idea thats a tough spot man. So what ended up happening anyway?

[Pates]

Weird hand. Very weird hand. The problem is that the guy does it with QQ as well so I don't think folding KK is an option, it never really is preflop.

Here's what happened... Drawing dead :s

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/flash/replayer.swf?pokerhandid=379110

[thefairy]

I'm folding pre-flop. I know it sucks but face it kk is a very vulnerable hand if your up against any ace rag, and you will see an ace on the flop 1/3 of the time. Not to mention the fact that your probably a 4 1/2 to 1 dog anyway because hes resprsenting AA. On top of all that your out of position. As for what you should do on the turn I have no idea thats a tough spot man. So what ended up happening anyway?

o.m.g














r u srs?

[SirJonnyP]

o.m.g














r u srs?

my thoughts too




and pates... i don't swear often, and espeically don't type swear words, but ****ing hell. i couldn't believe that. It's not your week for taking ridiculous beats.

[GarrethUoL]

Wow. Thats all I can say about the outcome!

And Gary are being serious? How can he fold KK, and how is he ever an underdog to an Ace-rag :S!

[bridgey321]

Fold KK preflop? wtf. Please try and justify this play. Wow. maybe he just went nuts because he was on the BTN. I thought it was a big semi bluff with :Ad :Kx.

[Gary1111]

my argument for folding KK preflop is that you guys are so deep stacked that it handicapps you from becoming to committed early in the hand. so when the ace falls on the flop what do you do? on top of that theres a good chance he's holding aces (unless of course you have a read on the player and you know he's capable of making a move as stupid as that with only q high, which over 90% of players would never do) the most important reason for me folding preflop is that i simply don't need to take those kind of risks i can pick up chips much eaiser in other ways, especially against a complete donk like he was.

[tan_man25]

if you think hes playing the button supurbly with an overpair, i dont get your line. I think unless hes got the nuts hes playing this gash.

Sorry, let me rephrase as that did not come across very clearly...

I think he played the button well if he had air (which he did), was just unfortunate he ran into a hand which was KK. I personally thought he had an overpair to the board, because he represented one really well.

I'm folding pre-flop. I know it sucks but face it kk is a very vulnerable hand if your up against any ace rag, and you will see an ace on the flop 1/3 of the time.

This is a bad way of looking at it and is definitely -EV. Firstly, he was playing in a shorthanded game, therefore a hand such as KK is so much more of a monster than in fullring. Secondly, if he's against Ace rag or even AK, AQ, AJ etc, then he HAS to call because he's miles ahead. Only hand that beats him preflop is AA.

[bridgey321]

The fact that it is 6 handed and he is on the button means that he does not neccessarily have to have AA to 4 bet. And an A isn't going to fall that often. You can't fold just incase that does happen. Yes you don't want to risk a lot of money but when you have the opportunity to get your money in as a big favourite then I don't know why you wouldn't take it. I just think that folding in this spot is not an option, if he has QQ-TT/AK/AQ like he could have you are going to stack him a lot of the time. It looked like pates tried to play small ball because as you said you don't want to risk all your chips however he decided to bluff off all his money.

[Gerrard48LFC]

FOLD KK PRE LOLLLLLLLLL i just pissed my pants!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

good to see he had nothing pates. you just have to call there such a great chance you are ahead. geez i cant believe he gave you so much $

[SirJonnyP]

i completely got myself confused, thought the idiot hit a gutshot on the river. nice hand pates, always good to catch some fish.

[SirJonnyP]

my argument for folding KK preflop is that you guys are so deep stacked that it handicapps you from becoming to committed early in the hand. so when the ace falls on the flop what do you do? on top of that theres a good chance he's holding aces (unless of course you have a read on the player and you know he's capable of making a move as stupid as that with only q high, which over 90% of players would never do) the most important reason for me folding preflop is that i simply don't need to take those kind of risks i can pick up chips much eaiser in other ways, especially against a complete donk like he was.

this is pretty good logic, and i use the same logic to explain why i fold aces pre. it's so easy for someone with a pocket pair to hit a set, or some with suited connectors to hit a straight or even a flush. that way it prevents me being stacked. :dollar:

[thefairy]

this is pretty good logic, and i use the same logic to explain why i fold aces pre. it's so easy for someone with a pocket pair to hit a set, or some with suited connectors to hit a straight or even a flush. that way it prevents me being stacked. :dollar:

so u fold the best hand pre flop because u are unable to play poker past the flop? jlo ur either being sarcastic or ur drunk, coz iv never seen u fold aces!

[Pates]

I understand Gary's logic in folding KK preflop but you shouldn't be worried about an A flopping or him having AA. I'd just like to keep the pot small if I can (he chose not to).

I'd like to know what you guys do if I have QQ in this situation with no diamond. I think that's a fold every day right?

[The Incompetent-Donkey]

so u fold the best hand pre flop because u are unable to play poker past the flop? jlo ur either being sarcastic or ur drunk, coz iv never seen u fold aces!

Level??

If not it's a severe sarcasm detector fail.

[thefairy]

i dont get what ur asking me mate? confuzled lol

[The Incompetent-Donkey]

i dont get what ur asking me mate? confuzled lol

Level= A statement or theory/viewpoint presented in a serious manner without any explicit reference to the fact it is a joke, but it is a joke. It's purpose is to elicit serious responses, at which point the joke divides into those who get it, and those who don't.

Jlo's comment I thought was kind of a level, but it was a wide level where the vast majority if not all were intended to acknowledge its' true point. That not playing hands out of the fear of being outdrawn is stupid.

By this response I fear that I have fallen for the level, if not I hope it clarifies what I meant.

[thefairy]

it was 5am i therefore think jlo was drunk and attempting seriousness lol. folding kings is hilarity.

[SirJonnyP]

nah, it was complete and utter sarcasm, and i was completely sober. glad to clear that up.

[tan_man25]

this is pretty good logic, and i use the same logic to explain why i fold aces pre. it's so easy for someone with a pocket pair to hit a set, or some with suited connectors to hit a straight or even a flush. that way it prevents me being stacked. :dollar:

J-lo, I disagree with you completely here. If you are scared of playing big hands because of the possibility that ur oponent might outdraw you, then there is no point in playing poker in the first place. If ur oponent does hit their set or their straight against ur aces, then unlucky, but in the longrun the aces will win much more of the time!

[tan_man25]

nah, it was complete and utter sarcasm, and i was completely sober. glad to clear that up.

Oh ok, lol...you had me worried for a second. I thought that all the bad beats that ud received lately had turned you into a fish!

[GarrethUoL]

Haha!
I don't know if I could ever fold KK pre!
QQ probably, JJ definitely.
But pocket K's... look so pretty :P!

[Pates]

I thought that all the bad beats that ud received lately had turned you into a fish!

Folding AA preflop (if he did) does not make him a fish. Infact it makes him a supa doopa nit.

[SirJonnyP]

i have never folded KK, let alone AA pre. As the cartoon says, i would rather rape and murder my own children than fold aces pre.

[Gary1111]

Anyone who has never folded KK pre-flop is not a good player, and I'm sure any professional will tell you the same thing. Example: Cash game, deep stacked. Your in early position and you bet 4 times the blind with KK a solid player in middle position raises and you re-raise then he shipps it. I wouldn't even blink an eye before folding. It just doesn't matter how good KK looks. This is just one example of many where KK should be folded pre-flop. Keep in mind you don't need to invest a large amount of money on a sticky situation. There will always be a better spot somewhere along the line.

[thefairy]

ok rite using ur examples i can put people on four hands AA,QQ,AK suited, (and JJ and KK can also be factored in to make 'one hand')

4x BB raise
10x BB on top
30x BB 3 bet
villain ships for 100bb

right. u got 30 bbs invested 70 behind u got to call 70BB into a 130 bb pot

if u can put hhim on AA, QQ, AK and a mix of JJ (unlikely) and KK (unlikely purely coz u hold KK) u got to call coz if ur rite one ine 3 times u make a profit so u can even factor out JJ/KK idea.

and also think this.. ur still 20% vs aces anyway

[bridgey321]

Never fold KK pre. You can always suck out if you are coolered vs AA. You're 20% at worst! that's plenty! :p

[tan_man25]

Anyone who has never folded KK pre-flop is not a good player, and I'm sure any professional will tell you the same thing. Example: Cash game, deep stacked. Your in early position and you bet 4 times the blind with KK a solid player in middle position raises and you re-raise then he shipps it. I wouldn't even blink an eye before folding. It just doesn't matter how good KK looks. This is just one example of many where KK should be folded pre-flop. Keep in mind you don't need to invest a large amount of money on a sticky situation. There will always be a better spot somewhere along the line.

Dude, you don't have a clue what you're talking about, one day you will learn how to play poker. Yes...I am really drunk!

[Gary1111]

Lmao,i can't beleive no one here folds KK pre-flop. You guys have one very key element of poker to learn: you don't play the cards you play the player.

[bizkit]

I'd love to see what people's advice is on this hand.

I chose to go for small ball poker but then he makes a rediculous bet on the turn. What would you do? And what would you do if the turn didn't come a diamond? I think this is purely a bankroll situation and comes down to the arguement of leaving tables when you have doubled your buyin.


I'm never leaving a table with a double stack when I'm sitting directly on the left of someone I perceive as a loose player who isn't so great. I'd of gladly stacked off here, sometimes you have to. Your pot controlling lead him to believe you were weak and induced him to make a big pot bluff.

[tan_man25]

Dude, you don't have a clue what you're talking about, one day you will learn how to play poker. Yes...I am really drunk!

Lol, sorry for the non constructive response, I was sooo drunk!

Anyone who has never folded KK pre-flop is not a good player, and I'm sure any professional will tell you the same thing. Example: Cash game, deep stacked. Your in early position and you bet 4 times the blind with KK a solid player in middle position raises and you re-raise then he shipps it. I wouldn't even blink an eye before folding. It just doesn't matter how good KK looks. This is just one example of many where KK should be folded pre-flop. Keep in mind you don't need to invest a large amount of money on a sticky situation. There will always be a better spot somewhere along the line.

Ermmm, well I can definitely see your logic behind not wanting to invest such a large stack, but thats why when I get to a certain point, I usually cash out and rebuy back in so that I'm not afraid to go all in on a hand like Kings!

[Pates]

Anyone who has never folded KK pre-flop is not a good player, and I'm sure any professional will tell you the same thing. Example: Cash game, deep stacked. Your in early position and you bet 4 times the blind with KK a solid player in middle position raises and you re-raise then he shipps it. I wouldn't even blink an eye before folding. It just doesn't matter how good KK looks. This is just one example of many where KK should be folded pre-flop. Keep in mind you don't need to invest a large amount of money on a sticky situation. There will always be a better spot somewhere along the line.
In 6max, people shove QQ/KK/AA/AK as a standard procedure. Definitely never folding KK because of the range. I'm pretty sure most professionals have never folded KK preflop apart from when on the bubble in a satellite. I agree about better spots but having KK is just too good a spot. Also, if I've raised then he's reraised then I've rereraised ... Assuming I'm 100bbs deep there is no way in hell I'm folding KK after that. I'm probably getting almost 5 to 1 when he shoves after that much committment!

Are you saying you have folded KK preflop? How many times??

[GarrethUoL]

There are definitely times when you can fold KK preflop... but these are very very rare times, and commonly folding KK pre in this spot surely has to be -EV.

[Gary1111]

well you guys might be content with playing a very large pot (in comparison to the blinds) being a 4to1 or a 3to1 favorite, but im content with playing small ball and just taking advantage of the many extremly weak players out there.