S & G Spot

[bigmacrmuk]

$4.40 stars S & G. Time banked this for a while. In the end thought I was flipping at best and could find a better spot for my money. Vill was pretty standard tight-aggressive.

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/flash/replayer.swf?pokerhandid=1208285

Thoughts?

[Litellio]

Did you just fold JJ??

Yeh, ez fold.

ps. 4bet a bit more to 2.6x

[Gerrard48LFC]

What he said^^^.

[The Incompetent-Donkey]

Yea I would'nt 4bet preflop, you really don't want to be going crazy with JJ early unless you know that villain will do this with worse.

[bridgey321]

Yea I would'nt 4bet preflop, you really don't want to be going crazy with JJ early unless you know that villain will do this with worse.

The thing is he min 3bet which indicates a spaz. If he 3bets to like 280 or summit then I'd be more worried, i see this sort of play a lot and villains very rarely show up with premiums and have KJ/KQ/A9 sort of holdings in their range.

4bet more aswell.

Flatting is not a terrible idea either but I think I 4bet/fold here this deep.

[deaks102]

Yeah. Nice fold. What previous comments have said.

Especially in 4.40s (i'm assuming it's the 180manner), the usual standard in them means you're never getting 3bet/4bet lightly unless it's one of the sick-ass regulars who have like 10k profit from them.

[bigmacrmuk]

Cheers for the advice guys.

NB. A little later I saw vill play a hand in a similar way (small 3bet vs EP raiser). Original raiser flatted, all money went in on an 8 high flop and vill showed Q's to OR's 10's.

Little bit more info there.

[The Incompetent-Donkey]

The thing is he min 3bet which indicates a spaz. If he 3bets to like 280 or summit then I'd be more worried, i see this sort of play a lot and villains very rarely show up with premiums and have KJ/KQ/A9 sort of holdings in their range..

He's giving you the option of pot controlling from the off we should take it unless we can percieve getting good value from the villain by 4betting. If I decide to 4bet I'm calling a shove. But in reality I'm like calling the 3bet allday you already have a hand with lots of showdown potential and he's making it super cheap, it would be ridiculous to bloat the pot further OOP.

[bridgey321]

I guess you're right no need to inflate the pot OOP because a lot (if not all) of the time he will call our 3bet, but we could easily be getting value out of people who spaz around with weak hands in this manner. As many times we will get flatted and fire most flops and he will fold. Personally I don't think either option is terrible here. What is your plan on low flops??

[Pates]

4 bet folding is madness. Especially if your 4-bet is 2x their raise. You're turning JJ into a bluff but a weak one at that. I have a sneaky feeling you wouldn't (semi) min their 3-bet if you had aces, kings or queens. Keep your betting patterns the same.

Personally I just call the 3-bet to set mine. If flop comes low I'll probably check jam. People in $4.40s will not necessarily have 1 of the 3 hands that beat you after a 3-bet in position.

[The Incompetent-Donkey]

4 bet folding is madness. Especially if your 4-bet is 2x their raise. You're turning JJ into a bluff but a weak one at that. I have a sneaky feeling you wouldn't (semi) min their 3-bet if you had aces, kings or queens. Keep your betting patterns the same.

Personally I just call the 3-bet to set mine. If flop comes low I'll probably check jam. People in $4.40s will not necessarily have 1 of the 3 hands that beat you after a 3-bet in position.

Basically agree but I handle post-flop differently. The problem with 4betting JJ is that it's strength is good but not great especially against a TAG, it can be showed down, and it can be folded, but by 4betting we are turning a hand which should be at the top of our calling range into a bluff, that's the worst part.

If villain is likely to spazz with AJ/KJ etc, then we want to keep those hands in, and if villain does have QQ+ we want to be able to beat those hands post flop by flopping huge and getting paid. By 4betting we reopen the bidding and allow them to come over the top, which is the last thing our hand wants.

Post-flop again I dont like c/shoving low flops because it's only being called by TT+, which again isn't at all sexy. So I c/c suitable flops and play poker from there.

[aamir6433]

Low flops you should bet/fold if it comes to it. C/c is ok but will probably be more expensive than if you lead out, and easily more exploitable even if we are talking about pkr players lolol

[The Incompetent-Donkey]

Low flops you should bet/fold if it comes to it. C/c is ok but will probably be more expensive than if you lead out, and easily more exploitable even if we are talking about pkr players lolol

Are you leading your sets as well? I mean B/F is an ok line but if you're b/f quite strong hands only then that would be exploitable. I still think people are missing the point you WANT to get to showdown with this hand, because you think your hand is good often enough to call, but is too weak to raise, therefore you should be calling.

1) if villains range is made up of TT+,AQs,AK but will only fire one barrel with an overpair+, c/c-c/f (with JJ), c/c-c/r (with sets)

2) Same range but now he double barrels his whole range, c/c-c/c-c/f (with JJ), c/c-c/c-b/c (with sets) seems pretty sexy.

3) If villain fires 3barrels with the whole of his range then c/c-c/c-c/c (with JJ) can't be bad for a lot of boards and c/c-c/c-c/r (with sets).

If villain is a TAG he WILL fit somewhere between these 3 categories, don't go turning you hand into a bluff because you have missed your call button.

It feels ridiculous to write this but

Raise- I want the pot to become bigger because I have an edge I want to capitalise on and make you incorrectly call or I want to make you think I have an edge so you incorrectly fold.

Call- I am happy to continue and see how things develop with further action, in principle I am happy with the stakes set and see no need to either leave the hand or raise the stakes.

Fold- I cannot continue with this pot.

Now can you see why we REALLY don't want to bloat this pot with JJ. Villain CAN'T put you all-in on the river without massively overbetting, we still can hit huge, we have plenty of room to manoever post-flop and we really can't handle more pre-flop action.

[nickstrick1]

MAKES ME BLEEEEEEEEURRGHH!

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/flash/replayer.swf?pokerhandid=1212466

[Pates]

Low flops you should bet/fold if it comes to it. C/c is ok but will probably be more expensive than if you lead out, and easily more exploitable even if we are talking about pkr players lolol
Imo, calling preflop and then check calling on a low flop to then see possibly Q/K/A on turn (+ the fact we're going to check the turn whatever) is just dirty. We check call to check the turn so that they have an easy decision to just fire again.

Simple rule to this hand:

- Call preflop to set mine. If you miss - check fold.
- Call preflop to check shove flop to max value from AK/AQ/TT.

I don't really get the arguement for any other line other than the two above.

4-betting just isn't an option really. JJ just doesn't have the strength to do that in this situation.

[Blue-Emu]

Plate when you play mtts, do you find a standard 3x bb raise, especially in early and middle position, more often than not is called by at least 2, if not 3 or 4 players?

This is regardless of the blinds.

When you say "don't alter your bet size depending on the strength of your hand", do you mean that to apply to all table positions, blind structure, etc.?

[nickstrick1]

Blue-Emu, there's some good threads about this in the strategy advice section of the site..
Generally raises should be larger from early position (spesh @ full ring) because of more people behind to act. But don't adjust your bet sizing based on hand strength; it makes patterns obvious to your opponents.

[Litellio]

MAKES ME BLEEEEEEEEURRGHH!

http://www.pokerhandreplays.com/flash/replayer.swf?pokerhandid=1212466

Either shove or fold flop.

[Pates]

When you say "don't alter your bet size depending on the strength of your hand", do you mean that to apply to all table positions, blind structure, etc.?

Yeah sure. I raise 3x UTG and I won't be surprised to see 3 callers. But at the end of the day I know (for most people) a rough range to put them on and play postflop accordingly. If people are calling super light preflop they are probably terrible and will just pay off postflop. Definitely worth getting these people in on the action, just need to watch out for dangerous boards that smother their hand range.

[Pates]

Either shove or fold flop.
That's cloooose. Personally I'd probably just jam because it's normally good. But effectively bluffing.

I don't think smoothing is all that bad really.

[nickstrick1]

LItellio - fish... raise flop for value and shove blank turns... he shouldn't be calling the turn surely? Think i played this to perfection sir.

[Pates]

That's cloooose. Personally I'd probably just jam because it's normally good. But effectively bluffing.

I don't think smoothing is all that bad really.
Sorry. I read Litellio's post as "preflop". Definitely a flop shove...