JJ Preflop Strat

[Pates]

The BTN raiser has 5% 3-bet and running at 20/17.

Once I'm getting over 3 to 1 on the call preflop obviously I'm never folding. But what about preflop line? Ignore the fact that BB wakes up with a monster.

Seat 1: pates11380 ($154 in chips)
Seat 2: 2k00l ($102.65 in chips)
Seat 3: ggman2 ($105.65 in chips)
Seat 4: casius14 ($184.70 in chips)
Seat 5: Hotey ($111.85 in chips)
Seat 6: tumblest0ne ($100 in chips)
pates11380: posts small blind $0.50
2k00l: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pates11380 [ ]
ggman2: folds
casius14: folds
Hotey: raises $2 to $3
tumblest0ne: raises $7 to $10
pates11380: raises $21.50 to $31.50
2k00l: raises $71.15 to $102.65 and is all-in
Hotey: folds
tumblest0ne: calls $90 and is all-in
pates11380: calls $71.15

[SirJonnyP]

after what's gone on before, i don't think you need to raise here, especially out of the sb. i think you can flat call, and effectively set mine.

[Pates]

I don't think we're necessarily getting paid with a set mine from a fairly aggro player 3-betting the button. If the flop comes low then are we really just going to check fold? Btw, being on the SB is more reason to raise if anything.

[bizkit]

I don't like it(4beting). Too many players in either cutoff or button will go broke with QQ or AK. If they were both nits and only go broke with AA or KK I suppose this play would be profitable by 4bet folding but then again you could essentially do it with any hand cause you've basically turned JJ into a bluff. I think it becomes worse than that though considering their actual likely range because after you put in the 4bet I don't think you're doing so with the intention of folding. So your equity looks something like this:

69% or so you win $14.50
31% or so you're a 36.2%/63.8% dog to a range likely to be (QQ+,AK) for a stack.

Of course, this doesn't take into account scenarios where someone takes a flop calling your 4bet(with so many players actively raising flatting is less likely because most of the players have to worry about another raise behind them). Or where you're in a multi-way all in like what actually transpires.

All that being said I think our best option becomes:
-Flatting and reevaluating what transpires with the rest of preflop & flop texture.

[Gerrard48LFC]

i would smooth pre unless the BTN was 3betting light.

[Mike]

What range are you putting them on when you 4bet? Personally I don't like this and I don't even like calling the 3bet tbh. We're only just even money against his 5% 3bet range - imagine our equity against his 4bet range! Plus we're OOP and there's the original raiser still to act.

Faced with this, I fold.

If we get called/raised by either, we're crushed. If we call the 3bet we don't have odds to set mine. If we do just get called, we're either winning a fairly small pot or losing a stack - made all the more difficult by the fact we're OOP.

[bizkit]

Well, to me calling > folding because:

a) I don't mind cutoff calling so much as I will be less likely to go broke if he's in pot and additionally he will stack anytime he calls off with a pocket pair(TT-22) and we both hit sets. When he hits his set though and I am unimproved I probably don't lose much most of the time. I can also give the button greater respect when its checked and he cbets into two opponents.
b) When its heads up and assuming the button is 3bet'ing more from the button and cbets out a lot in 3bet pots heads up I'm fairly content check raising here and getting it in on a bunch of boards. It becomes a lot more dead chips to win(depends on how much of the pot he cbets) as opposed to if I 4bet preflop.
c) I also have the option to lead out.

[Mike]

Maybe im being retarded but do we have the odds to set mine? Thats effectively what you're suggesting we do in point a, right? I'm not convinced that point b and c offset the lack of odds. Mainly because villain wont stack off the vast majority of the time without hitting a set/having an overpair. Only a small % of this time will we have a set too.

Except for the obvious Jxx board, what boards are we content in 'getting it in'? I don't think I'm ever content getting JJ in, in a 3bet pot.

[Pates]

BTN 3-bet against cut off raise from a semi-aggressive player does not mean QQ/KK/AA. We have to adjust this guy's range quite dramatically to AK/AQ/AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT and also a whole load of tricky hands.

A good rule of thumb I was told by my mentor last year is that we want 12 to 1 implied odds when calling to purely hit a set. In this hand he needs to have $120 effective.

[Mike]

BTN 3-bet against cut off raise from a semi-aggressive player does not mean QQ/KK/AA. We have to adjust this guy's range quite dramatically to AK/AQ/AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT and also a whole load of tricky hands.

A good rule of thumb I was told by my mentor last year is that we want 12 to 1 implied odds when calling to purely hit a set. In this hand he needs to have $120 effective.

I think QQ+/AK does apply AFTER your 4bet (for both villains), but not before. Because of the lack of odds and the difficulty in playing post flop, fold > raise/call (Havn't decided if calling is worse then raising or vis versa).